Liquid Talks Standard
February 10 2016
Last week brought with it one of the most impactful announcements to date in competitive Hearthstone. The introduction of Standard into Hearthstone as the primary format for the World Championship will turn the game on its head. Not only will the new format allow for future sets to have a greater impact, some chronic meta-offenders will be completely removed.
Despite this being a well received announcement, there are still some areas open for discussion. We've decided, therefore, to ask Sjow, Neirea, and Dog for their take on the announcement. After all, these are the guys who will be breaking ground in the new format to try and make it to the World Championship.
Despite this being a well received announcement, there are still some areas open for discussion. We've decided, therefore, to ask Sjow, Neirea, and Dog for their take on the announcement. After all, these are the guys who will be breaking ground in the new format to try and make it to the World Championship.
So just to start off easy, what would you say are your initial impressions from the announcement?
It's great news and with this major change it will be even more exciting when a new set is released. Constant change is what Hearthstone really needs.
I really like Standard just for the fact that Naxx and GvG will be not viable! I dislike powercreep which Naxx and GvG brought with them. It was very hard to deal with all of these sticky and RNG minions. Now minions actually die if you use removal.
This is not to say I'm looking for worse cards overall. I just think that the sticky early game minions -- such as Haunted Creeper and Piloted Shredder -- pushed the metagame to far to the aggressive end of the spectrum. These cards were just too punishing to those not curving out early.
This is not to say I'm looking for worse cards overall. I just think that the sticky early game minions -- such as Haunted Creeper and Piloted Shredder -- pushed the metagame to far to the aggressive end of the spectrum. These cards were just too punishing to those not curving out early.
It's good to see that Blizzard is trying to make the game more interesting and trying to change the meta up. It seems like a good thing to exclude sets; however, more expansions still need to come out frequently in order for the meta to remain diverse. This is probably the most important thing since a diverse meta is a happy meta.
Moving forward, Standard will require either more frequent releases or changing which sets are allowed in it by limiting the card pool. A smaller card pool could make Standard feel as though there are fewer options. Frequent releases or revisiting old sets could help mitigate this problem. It would also be nice if old cards don't become completely irrelevant for competitive play, it would be nice to include old sets in the future: do we really want Healbot and Belcher gone forever?
Moving forward, Standard will require either more frequent releases or changing which sets are allowed in it by limiting the card pool. A smaller card pool could make Standard feel as though there are fewer options. Frequent releases or revisiting old sets could help mitigate this problem. It would also be nice if old cards don't become completely irrelevant for competitive play, it would be nice to include old sets in the future: do we really want Healbot and Belcher gone forever?
One of the criticisms of Standard so far has been that the Classic and Basic sets will not be rotating. Do you see this as a problem moving forward? Do you think that Classic/Basic is too powerful to be kept around indefinitely?
Not at all, Blizzard mentioned they will change classic cards and by doing so might change the entire meta with just a single change. Also hopefully they will buff some of the weaker cards. I would love to use something like Gruul.
Nobody is really talking about buffs but there are plenty of unplayable -- but interesting -- cards like The Beast, Kidnapper, and Master of Disguise that I would love to play if they were actually comparable to other options. In general I think it's better to buff cards and give the player more options than nerfing something.
Nobody is really talking about buffs but there are plenty of unplayable -- but interesting -- cards like The Beast, Kidnapper, and Master of Disguise that I would love to play if they were actually comparable to other options. In general I think it's better to buff cards and give the player more options than nerfing something.
Some people are concerned about it but I hope Blizzard will make fixes such that that Basic/Classic cards are not two thirds of every deck. They should also make some neutral cards less problematic such as Alexstrasza. Ideally they should look at every card and reevaluate them. Staples such as Knife Juggler, Leper Gnome, Ironbeak Owl, and even the giants are good places to start.
Eventually I'd like to see it rotate out but there aren't nearly enough cards for that so it's necessary for at least a few years.
As for power level, the basic set is really good. Really really good. As I said though, there just aren't enough cards to exclude the basic set. Regarding nerfs, yeah they need to change some cards and this is a perfect time for it. The somewhat overpowered cards like Savage Roar are probably up for discussions and possibly cards that rely too much on RNG like Knife Juggler.
As for power level, the basic set is really good. Really really good. As I said though, there just aren't enough cards to exclude the basic set. Regarding nerfs, yeah they need to change some cards and this is a perfect time for it. The somewhat overpowered cards like Savage Roar are probably up for discussions and possibly cards that rely too much on RNG like Knife Juggler.
As alluded to above, Druid is one of those problem classes where the current best decks are mostly Classic/Basic cards. What, if anything, would you do address the Druid class?
Innervate and Savage Roar-Force of Nature are too strong. If one of the combo pieces gets nerfed then the other card becomes fine. That said, I would prefer to see a change to Savage Roar over Force.
I think the grindier Druid cards -- such as Ancient of Lore -- are fine because they don't usually decide games. Generally the curve or ramp into them is the decider and they just finish up.
What I really dislike about the Hearthstone meta is that some games are just decided after four turns due to bad curves and one's play has very little to do with it. Most of the best decks right now are these so called "curve decks" such as Paladin, Shaman, and Druid.
I think the grindier Druid cards -- such as Ancient of Lore -- are fine because they don't usually decide games. Generally the curve or ramp into them is the decider and they just finish up.
What I really dislike about the Hearthstone meta is that some games are just decided after four turns due to bad curves and one's play has very little to do with it. Most of the best decks right now are these so called "curve decks" such as Paladin, Shaman, and Druid.
It's hard to tell what needs to be changed before seeing the new set. Innervate and Keeper of the Grove may need looking in to but we can't know for sure at this point.
The combo is still an issue but it may be less so than people seem to think. Once Emperor rotates out it will be much less powerful. If they do decide to nerf it, making Savage Roar four mana seems fair. Ten mana and two cards for fourteen damage seems pretty reasonable.
The combo is still an issue but it may be less so than people seem to think. Once Emperor rotates out it will be much less powerful. If they do decide to nerf it, making Savage Roar four mana seems fair. Ten mana and two cards for fourteen damage seems pretty reasonable.
Most of the Druid cards seem pretty balanced, at least what I can think of now. Sure Ancient of Lore is a really strong card but some of its strength is just in helping dig to the combo. If you take the combo away, drawing cards becomes less beneficial.
As for how to fix the combo, Savage Roar probably wouldn't see much play if it only gave +1 but a nerf to it needs to happen. It's too strong right now and Druid loses almost nothing.
As for how to fix the combo, Savage Roar probably wouldn't see much play if it only gave +1 but a nerf to it needs to happen. It's too strong right now and Druid loses almost nothing.
So if nothing changes and Druid is the best class post-rotation, which class is the worst or loses the most?
At first glance I'd say Priest and Paladin but Dragon Priest and Murloc Paladin might still be good decks. Warrior may also fall off without Death's Bite but Warrior always finds a way into at least tier two.
Well Secret Paladin is going to lose half its cards... Slow Warlocks are losing some defensive tools as well but hopefully the new expansion will compensate for that.
I also see many comments that Lightbomb and Deathlord are very big loss but I think Priest should be fine. Before GvG Deathlord wasn't a staple in Control Priest and Lightbomb is mostly only necessary now to kill Secret Paladins. The biggest loss is Dark Cultist; but again, the new expansion will probably compensate for the lack of a solid three-drop.
I also see many comments that Lightbomb and Deathlord are very big loss but I think Priest should be fine. Before GvG Deathlord wasn't a staple in Control Priest and Lightbomb is mostly only necessary now to kill Secret Paladins. The biggest loss is Dark Cultist; but again, the new expansion will probably compensate for the lack of a solid three-drop.
Priest and Paladin get hit pretty hard but it's also sad to see archtypes like Grinder Mage die with the removal of Echo of Medivh and Duplicate. There will most likely be fewer Paladin and Priests around. It's also interesting to look at Warrior because they were really strong even before Death's Bite and Shieldmaiden. It will be interesting to see how they fare without those cards again.
So fix the problem! What does Paladin need as a two-drop to help replace Shielded Minibot?
I don't know if they need one. There are many decent two-drops like Flame Juggler, Knife Juggler (although without the Muster followup he's less good), Ooze, Garrison Commander, Huge Toad, Wild Pyromancer, Sunfury Protector, and Mad Bomber. This is one of the best parts of the rotation: by removing the far and away best option many other two-drops can shine.
Wild Pyromancer, Flame Juggler, and Knife Juggler will probably be the top three choices.
Wild Pyromancer, Flame Juggler, and Knife Juggler will probably be the top three choices.
I don't play very much Paladin, but for Priest a vanilla 2/4 for two would help make up for losing Cultist but may be too good. They already have Wyrmrest Agent but it would be nice to see one which doesn't require Dragon synergy. Given the choice, I would rather build Control Priest without the dragons.
Doomsayer, just go full murloc on them! 
The pending rotation has the potential to breathe new life into cards which have been neglected. Which in particular are you hoping to make a comeback?
Varian Wrynn! He's such a powerful card but has never had a time to shine. Varian has always been either too slow or just bad because of fatigue. In a midrange or slower control meta it could be nuts.
Hmmm, probably Gorehowl.
Cairne has a lot of potential to come back and I missed that big oaf...